Poll about the current headshot multiplier (3x)

Here you can discuss the game in general and provide us your opinion or feedback on the project.

Is the 3x headshot multiplier too high?

Yes.
 
59% (44)
Yes, but only for some classes (classes being SMG, AR, DMR, Pistol...)
 
15% (11)
No.
 
27% (20)
 
Total votes : 75

02.05.2020, 13:24

Low time to kill is not because of overly excessive damage multipliers, but because of non-existential penalties from recoil or movement.

The 3x HS multiplier is fine. The argument "hipfiring random newbies" getting a lucky headshot and instantly killing you would not be a problem if you lower the chances of getting a headshot in the first place - good players will get the same amount of headshots as now and newbies will once in a match get a random kill they shouldn't have. You lower the HS multiplier, you are just giving a greater advantage to high rate of fire weapons and snipers. It's a very blunt change that will then require numerous further tweaks to achieve balance.

There is a very good reason nobody ever takes the dispersion upgrades on assault rifles or SMGs. It's because you don't ever need them.
User avatar
Lead Head
 
Posts: 9
Joined: 17.03.2020, 23:07

02.05.2020, 16:28

Lead Head:

Your suggestion is to make it harder to hit headshots with the current damage multipliers. That would just amplify the issue that is currently caused by it. Random headshots would still be extremely annoying against awful players. Good players can get multiple headshots in a short time, so if the headshot damage multiplier is reduced the required skill is increased.

Rate of fire should have nothing to do with the time to kill because the weapons should be balanced based on their damage per second, instead of damage per bullet.

I agree about this making snipers stronger, but they are already way too strong and need to be heavily adjusted anyway.
User avatar
Kube
 
Posts: 804
Joined: 15.04.2013, 16:46

02.05.2020, 19:44

Kube:That would just amplify the issue that is currently caused by it. Random headshots would still be extremely annoying against awful players.

Random headshots will not disappear no matter the damage multiplier, recoil or dispersion. By adjusting just this one value, you are changing the core gameplay that will further require adjustments, potentially creating more issues to fix one.

Kube:Good players can get multiple headshots in a short time, so if the headshot damage multiplier is reduced the required skill is increased.

Good players can get more accurate hits, so if the damage multiplier is high the required skill is increased.

Your argument works both ways. Decreasing the chance to hit for a worse player also increases required skill.

Kube:Rate of fire should have nothing to do with the time to kill because the weapons should be balanced based on their damage per second, instead of damage per bullet.

There are few weapons with low rate of fire that have as high DPS as something like the SR-3M and usually are offset by something else that make them unfavourable (low effective range on Ash-12, small magazine on SCAR-H). The AK-12 is arguably the only outlier here.
By requiring the player to make more successive shots, the one who fires more shots in the same amount of time (or the same amount of shots in less time, assuming per-shot damage is same) is more likely to win. On top of that, while we can assume a great player will not miss any shots, the reality is often not so, and you see even players like HandOfMidas missing shots in bursts. For every missed shot, the advantage leans more towards the player with higher rate of fire.
Yes, the weapons can be balanced around a lower HS multiplier, but again, it will require pretty much an overhaul of every weapon's stats currently in the game to make sure they are as competitive as currently.
User avatar
Lead Head
 
Posts: 9
Joined: 17.03.2020, 23:07

02.05.2020, 22:39

Lead Head:
Random headshots will not disappear no matter the damage multiplier, recoil or dispersion.

But the point is to remove random instant deaths due to random headshots.

Lead Head:

Good players can get more accurate hits, so if the damage multiplier is high the required skill is increased.

Your argument works both ways. Decreasing the chance to hit for a worse player also increases required skill.

I'd say consistency is what should make a player good. Consistently hitting 3-5 shots to the head in a row is much more skillful than hitting one. The other end of the spectrum rewards gamesense/camping more than it does mechanical skill.

Lead Head:
There are few weapons with low rate of fire that have as high DPS as something like the SR-3M and usually are offset by something else that make them unfavourable (low effective range on Ash-12, small magazine on SCAR-H). The AK-12 is arguably the only outlier here.
By requiring the player to make more successive shots, the one who fires more shots in the same amount of time (or the same amount of shots in less time, assuming per-shot damage is same) is more likely to win. On top of that, while we can assume a great player will not miss any shots, the reality is often not so, and you see even players like HandOfMidas missing shots in bursts. For every missed shot, the advantage leans more towards the player with higher rate of fire.
Yes, the weapons can be balanced around a lower HS multiplier, but again, it will require pretty much an overhaul of every weapon's stats currently in the game to make sure they are as competitive as currently.


Weapons can always be readjusted, but only changing the headshot multiplier wouldn't change the weapon balance too much in the assault rifle category. It might make a certain rifle more attractive instead of the ones in meta now.
User avatar
Kube
 
Posts: 804
Joined: 15.04.2013, 16:46

04.05.2020, 10:29

This world of warcraft "dps" and "ttk" is just ridiculous in context of a shooter.

Instead of creating sandbox for tactics and teamwork and rewarding catching people out in the open, landing a shot in head it gets replaced with this "dps" cringe, where "skill" is supposed to be - two people sprint in the open then dps eachother and whoever has better "ttk" weapon wins. Lmao. I'd understand if it was consistent, but there are armors and magic stuff, I shit you not, I shot a guy in the head from 2m with my Valmet whatever(7.62x39) and the dude didn't die. Bruh. And then I shot a dude in a toe with my sniper and he died. Braah.
Last edited by SMARCH on 04.05.2020, 10:33, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
SMARCH
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 12.01.2014, 07:50
Location: The Balance is out there

04.05.2020, 11:04

SMARCH:This world of warcraft "dps" and "ttk" is just ridiculous in context of a shooter.

Instead of creating sandbox for tactics and teamwork and rewarding catching people out in the open, landing a shot in head it gets replaced with this "dps" cringe, where "skill" is supposed to be - two people sprint in the open then dps eachother and whoever has better "ttk" weapon wins. Lmao. I'd understand if it was consistent, but there are armors and magic stuff, I shit you not, I shot a guy in the head from 2m with my Valmet whatever(7.62x39) and the dude didn't die. Bruh. And then I shot a dude in a toe with my sniper and he died. Braah.

I have a strong feeling that this is bait, but i'll bite.

First of all it is a video game and we can all agree that survarium isn't really in the military simulation genre. If you start bringing realistic behavior into a game where do you stop. Do you want your character to be completely incapable of accurate fire while moving, and be completely incapacitated from the first hit received? Should the healing mechanic for being shot in the leg once be a trip to the hospital for 6 months? Survarium is a video game, and video games need proper balance whether you like it or not.

The point about sprinting wide in the open shooting at each other confused me a bit. Are you implying that people would just sprint in the open because headshots didn't instantly kill? Let's consider this scenario, you are hiding in a random corner of the map and you see a person 70m away from you. You take the time to aim and wait for the right opportunity to open fire, you surprise your target and hit him with a 5-7 round burst instantly killing him. But if you are bad at shooting you might miss a couple of bullets letting him shoot back at you and he might be able to land all the required hits to kill you.
User avatar
Kube
 
Posts: 804
Joined: 15.04.2013, 16:46

04.05.2020, 11:38

No that's not it.

Survarium is a video game, and videogames need players. No one plays game because "balance". No one plays game because you need 5 headshots to kill someone in a game where shooting is the only thing you do.

Why would you need 5-7 shots to kill someone, why one shot in head doing the same thing is not good? You caught someone with his pants down and shouldn't you be rewarded for that?
"But if you are bad at shooting you might miss a couple of bullets letting him shoot back at you and he might be able to land all the required hits to kill you." Ye right, even when you ambush someone reward for it is taken away from you because he has better aim. So, only thing in game that matters is your aim, that's shallow and bad design. That new player stubles behind someone and his heart starts to pound in excitement, he's gona get that super imba aim ttk dude, aims carefully at his head and shoots, turns away and realizes he didnt die because balance or some shit. What do you think, 99 out of 100 players will uninstall or not?

I'd say with few edits game can become something attractive:
1. Leg and arm shots can't kill, they can only add bleeding and the "broken limb" stuff.
2. head and upper torso is instant kill with any weapon, light armor can give more shots from pistol calibers and heavy armor could give more shots to torso from rifle calibers and more shots to head form pistol calibers.
Grats, players actually have to know where enemy is, have to amply some tactics and teamwork instead of rushing-dying-15sec-repeat borefest.

Overall I don't care much, I believed once upon a time and it's nice to fantasize about these things, when we know nothing will ever come form this. I found lots of games that better suit my taste, newer games, that run better on my rig with great mechanisms and functionalty underneath. Survarium gives me 1999 feels with slapped "guud grafiks" on top as if that ever made any game good.

Enjoy your game with all 10 players that play it, what can I say, it's great that you like it.
Last edited by SMARCH on 04.05.2020, 12:02, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
SMARCH
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 12.01.2014, 07:50
Location: The Balance is out there

04.05.2020, 12:07

SMARCH:
Survarium is a video game, and videogames need players. No one plays game because "balance". No one plays game because you need 5 headshots to kill someone in a game where shooting is the only thing you do.

No need to exaggerate. 5 hits would be just as absurd as 1-2.

SMARCH:
Why would you need 5-7 shots to kill someone, why one shot in head doing the same thing is not good? You caught someone with his pants down and shouldn't you be rewarded for that?
"But if you are bad at shooting you might miss a couple of bullets letting him shoot back at you and he might be able to land all the required hits to kill you." Ye right, even when you ambush someone reward for it is taken away from you because he has better aim. So, only thing in game that matters is your aim, that's shallow and bad design. That new player stubles behind someone and his heart starts to pound in excitement, he's gona get that super imba aim ttk dude, aims carefully at his head and shoots, turns away and realizes he didnt die because balance or some shit. What do you think, 99 out of 100 players will uninstall or not?

If you catch him with his pants down you should also be skilled enough to benefit from that by hitting your shots. You WILL kill him before he can hurt you IF you are not a terrible shooter. A terrible shooter should not be given any kills as gifts, it does not make any sense.
SMARCH:
I'd say with few edits game can become something attractive:
1. Leg and arm shots can't kill, they can only add bleeding and the "broken limb" stuff.
2. head and upper torso is instant kill with any weapon, light armor can give more shots from pistol calibers and heavy armor could give more shots to torso and more shots to head form pistol calibers.
Grats, players actually have to know where enemy is, have to amply some tactics and teamwork instead of rushing-dying-15sec-repeat borefest.

1. We already had systems similar to what you are talking about with limb damage. Those only work if armor actually does anything, in the current version the difference between the lightest and heaviest armor is negligible.
2. Sitting in corners and hiding to shoot people in the back is already a massive issue, this would just amplify that and make the game even more passive.
SMARCH:
Enjoy your game with all 10 players that play it, what can I say, it's great that you like it.

In this current state i don't like it and i don't play it. In few of the past versions of the game survarium was my favourite game to play, but they ruined the game with poor decisions and now they are suddenly afraid to change A SINGLE THING when the game is at its worst state. If Vostok thinks the balance is actually good now, i'd like to hear the reasoning behind it, but none of the developers ever post anything on EU side.

Look at the percentages in this poll ffs.. 72% of the people who have voted think that the headshot multiplier is too high.
Last edited by Kube on 04.05.2020, 12:08, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Kube
 
Posts: 804
Joined: 15.04.2013, 16:46

04.05.2020, 12:45

It's not a gift in any way. Getting behind enemy takes skill. Landing 5 consecutive hits is not the only skill that should be in game.

People sit in corners exactly because they have to hit so many times in a row or they die because emphasis on "shooting" skill is so high. If player does not have 0.18 sec reactions with 100hrs experience on recoil control all that's left is to sit i corner. Why would anyone go out to do objective or anything if all that's happens is they die even if they get the drop on someone? Flanking and ambushing already does not work that good and you somehow think that it shouldn't even be a thing with this no headshot thing.

72% out of 80 votes, from people who are already into the game and forums. Great sample, yeah yeah.
Last edited by SMARCH on 04.05.2020, 12:48, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
SMARCH
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 12.01.2014, 07:50
Location: The Balance is out there

04.05.2020, 14:32

SMARCH:

The time to kill is pretty much instant with the current headshot multiplier, which is the reason so many people camp in corners. Make the time to kill longer and people might be able to retaliate.

They will only die when they get a drop onto someone if they are too bad at the game and do not deserve to get any kills because they cannot shoot accurately and consistently.

I never said landing 5 hits is the only skill needed, i said that you need AT LEAST 5 hits to kill someone because the recoil is easy to control. If you can shoot first you will be able to fire at least 5 bullets before the enemy can turn and aim at you. It is up to you to make those bullets count, if you are terrible and cannot hit the broadside of a barn you need to improve your aim.
User avatar
Kube
 
Posts: 804
Joined: 15.04.2013, 16:46

04.05.2020, 17:15

Cmon now, how can they retaliate if they are dead, at best they can land few hits. Now if they can pop one in head (precision - skill, is it not?) they win.

Whole logic here is defeating itself.

Also, I don't think ttk, dps or Balance has anything to do with campers. I mean, can you imagine any scenario where actual tactics and teamwork would win even against fastest and most preicise players that don't employ any tactic? I guess camping... sometimes.

Can you deny any pathway? No, best player will jsut run out and dps down anyone who is not that fast. Have you even had situation where you know that worst player is holding and angle and you know that you will die if you peek there, no matter how fast you are? Me neither, either I have higher "ttk" or enemy has, any other variables are so negligible, even actively eradicated by devs.

All the "easy to learn - hard to master" concept is just thrown out of the window in favor of fool's errand that is Balance. Peak of skill we got here is "keep the rounds going into target or you don't deserve kills", no wonder is barren and sterile.
Last edited by SMARCH on 04.05.2020, 17:22, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
SMARCH
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 12.01.2014, 07:50
Location: The Balance is out there

12.05.2020, 17:09

Frankly, I think the current game is a hot mess that I'd best describe as scuffed instagib with unlimited range lightning guns and cumbersome movement, TTKs that approach human reaction times and just shooting a lot of bullets and gambling on probability that recoil/spread is going to make some of them hit is a viable tactic.

Konstantyn
 
Posts: 15
Joined: 02.02.2015, 15:17

01.07.2020, 09:57

the issue is scaling when aiming through scopes

survivor_5370261522650641138
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 16.06.2020, 15:33

02.07.2020, 11:09

Lead Head:Low time to kill is not because of overly excessive damage multipliers, but because of non-existential penalties from recoil or movement.

The 3x HS multiplier is fine. The argument "hipfiring random newbies" getting a lucky headshot and instantly killing you would not be a problem if you lower the chances of getting a headshot in the first place - good players will get the same amount of headshots as now and newbies will once in a match get a random kill they shouldn't have. You lower the HS multiplier, you are just giving a greater advantage to high rate of fire weapons and snipers. It's a very blunt change that will then require numerous further tweaks to achieve balance.

There is a very good reason nobody ever takes the dispersion upgrades on assault rifles or SMGs. It's because you don't ever need them.

Recoil can vary from non-existent to literally pushing you back depending on what attachments and upgrades you have.

Man Down Under
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 09.06.2020, 13:52

05.09.2020, 01:41

The 2.5x damage modifier has been in the game for some time now and I think it's a good time to revisit this topic. I guess I have to discuss several aspects of the game, but the headshot modifier is still relevant here.

First off, sniper balance is completely bonkers right now. Vychlop is just hilarious and you see players like Arebowe abusing it to the fullest. There is no counter-play - even when you run around a corner, get the first shot off, you still lose in almost every case. Getting a headshot is already harder than getting an imperfect shot (even through walls, given that .50cal sniper rifles now have 15 material penetration or something insane like that) to any body part at all, but when you get a headshot and it does completely nothing in the grand scale is just infuriating.
Giving silencers "+% aim time" instead of "-% effective range" was a step in the right direction, but is frankly meaningless when Vychlop has an integrated silencer that on average will still make it faster than any other sniper. The same silencer change also means SMGs get no drawback at all, as their aim time is already low and adding 15% of almost zero is still going to be almost zero, but that's for another day.

0.63 changes to armour and weapon damage do not help in the slightest - heavy armours are completely invalidated, as all you need is the bare minimum face armour to protect from a single shot. Except with the lower damage multiplier, that is pretty much any mask and helmet. Snipers are 100% guaranteed instant kills unless you happen to have at least 65 armour and 2 Onyxes, which in itself is not anything you can rely on, as artifact spawns are random. Zubr was unique in that it protected you from a single headshot reliably or sniper fire. Now almost every armour above tier 2 protects from a single headshot while Zubr has gained very minimal difference on the actual impact the armour provides while receiving even heavier mobility penalties thanks to the stamina use on all armours increased.
Most people run the Delta set or a combination of Nomad and some other set that provides -% slowdown, because armour is irrelevant.

SMARCH:
Can you deny any pathway? No, best player will jsut run out and dps down anyone who is not that fast. Have you even had situation where you know that worst player is holding and angle and you know that you will die if you peek there, no matter how fast you are? Me neither, either I have higher "ttk" or enemy has, any other variables are so negligible, even actively eradicated by devs.

This is still relevant. Even when you see higher level players (talking top 100 in ranked) against each other in Search and Destroy, where positioning is arguably the most important skill out of all gamemodes, it's a complete gamble of who will win the engagement when coming around a corner. Peeker's advantage plays into this as well.

Man Down Under:Recoil can vary from non-existent to literally pushing you back depending on what attachments and upgrades you have.

Completely irrelevant as the recoil for all guns is linear in pattern - the recoil starts in a single direction and continues like that until you run out of ammo. Reset time is extremely low and most engagements happen at low ranges where you don't feel any dispersion penalty from movement (I am starting to doubt whether there even is any) or full auto fire. HK416? Adjust ever so slightly to the right and then just pull down. AK-12? Quarter circle to the right. FAMAS? Pull down a lot. AKMSU, Veresk, Vikhr? Literally Quake's lightning gun, just point and shoot.

Kube:I'd say consistency is what should make a player good. Consistently hitting 3-5 shots to the head in a row is much more skillful than hitting one.

Again, this argument works both ways. Hitting one headshot that does a lot of damage but is hard to do consistently requires more skill than hitting 3-5 shots that require just to put your crosshair on the target and hold the mouse button down.

Kube: The other end of the spectrum rewards gamesense/camping more than it does mechanical skill.

Could you please explain how exactly? The way I see it is that a person who is in an advantageous position (aka camping) will get the drop on the unaware player who will be dead before he gets to react anyway. Assuming an average human reaction time of 250ms, even with a damage modifier as low as 1.5 and assuming only a single headshot lands most guns and armour combinations will kill the unaware player before he has a chance to react, whereas the victim of the camper now has to identify where he is getting shot from, flick his aim and then land MULTIPLE harder to do shots to match/beat the camper's damage output when he is already at the very least below half health.
User avatar
Lead Head
 
Posts: 9
Joined: 17.03.2020, 23:07

05.09.2020, 17:58

Just add around 20-30 armor points to all existing armor parts and balance the sniper rifles... sigh
User avatar
apfelmu2
 
Posts: 206
Joined: 07.05.2016, 08:21

15.09.2020, 18:57

Lead Head:
Completely irrelevant as the recoil for all guns is linear in pattern - the recoil starts in a single direction and continues like that until you run out of ammo.

That's not true. Well, it is for pistols, but not for others weapons.
https://survarium.pro/armory/ttk click on "show" to see recoil pattern.

t0FF
 
Posts: 8
Joined: 07.02.2020, 11:40

In order to reply you must be signed in.

Return to Game Discussion