Survariums P2W dilemma resolved?

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17.01.2020, 18:59

So I read about an article on Steam where the fellow Chandrian broke down the game and shows how Survarium isn't P2W.
For a very long time Survarium was a P2W game. I even remember when VG got the brilliang idea and shot themselves in the leg by actually making the game P2W and joewillburn defended the system saying things like: "+3 damage over ranges is pretty balanced, the gun has a negative 0.05 aim-speed penalty". I also remember breaking down the stuff and calculating armors like Molot where you can get a 100% explosive resistance, but only with the paid Molot version and so on.

Now I am curious. Did VG finally do the only smart thing and changed stats of premium guns AND armors to be exact like their free counterparts?
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Dauerfeuer Ungeheuer
 
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17.01.2020, 20:10

Ofcourse not, but it would indeed be the smart thing to do, and let us use them as the normal part.
For example Bison helm, bison gloves + zubr shoes = 3set bonus
Turn premium ammo in to selectable boosters, if you have none you pay 5/7.5/10k penalty for using them.
Chance to win things in TH are also really small, after using 8 maps you will end up with some silver and boosters, to cut out some possible outcomes would make a lot sense./buy maps for 100k silver each

Weapons you win in TH also do not share same stats as the premium items (they have for example lower dps)
I'm not talking about the 25% silver bonus.
I can post screenshots as proof for it if interested.


I would say after they let us craft weapon parts for spare parts, this game moved from very p2w to just little p2w. (obtaining attachmants used to be too RNG, reaching impossible levels for weapon specific parts)

But there is still little road to walk, if they really want people to see it as non p2w game.

Do not get me wrong, I've seen games with much more p2w. It is pretty good in this game.
https://i.imgur.com/7wEP5ir.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Gz6iLDJ.jpg

I also have no interest in shotguns, but it is ammo people can use to shot down arguments like "you can win the same from th" because you can not and here is factual proof.
Last edited by Midori Fuse on 17.01.2020, 20:16, edited 2 times in total.

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17.01.2020, 23:57

Dauerfeuer Ungeheuer wrote:Now I am curious. Did VG finally do the only smart thing and changed stats of premium guns AND armors to be exact like their free counterparts?

Except for the KS-23M example that Midori Fuse is so proud of (stats differ because one uses slug rounds and the other uses 12G), the rest of the Premium weapons have identical stats compared to their free versions now. And the same goes for Premium armors: all have the same base stats and if one has "pockets +2" the other will have "pockets +2" too.

The only thing that changes are set bonuses, but in my opinion they are not better, they just change the way you play with that set, and even then they sometimes share certain bonuses with the normal versions.
  • For example, Pilgrim set bonuses grant you +25% passive artifact effect strength, but Voyager set (Premium version of Pilgrim) changes this to +50% active artifact effect duration. I'm lately using Voyager because it has +40% reputation gain instead of the 8% of Pilgrim set, but if it wasn't for that, I'd be using Pilgrim a lot more, it's just preference.
  • Then, Nomad (normal) vs Fugitive (Premium) set difference is laughable, because Nomad gives you scanner protection, but the Premium set loses this bonus and gives you a mere +10% breath hold time and -15% slowdown while aiming.
  • I also checked Molot UM-2 (normal) vs Molot UM-2A (Premium) and it doesn't even have reduced explosion damage bonuses anymore.
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Chandrian
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18.01.2020, 01:53

Chandrian:
Except for the KS-23M example that Midori Fuse is so proud of (stats differ because one uses slug rounds and the other uses 12G), the rest of the Premium weapons have identical stats compared to their free versions now. And the same goes for Premium armors: all have the same base stats and if one has "pockets +2" the other will have "pockets +2" too.

The only thing that changes are set bonuses, but in my opinion they are not better, they just change the way you play with that set, and even then they sometimes share certain bonuses with the normal versions.
For example, Pilgrim set bonuses grant you +25% passive artifact effect strength, but Voyager set (Premium version of Pilgrim) changes this to +50% active artifact effect duration. I'm lately using Voyager because it has +40% reputation gain instead of the 8% of Pilgrim set, but if it wasn't for that, I'd be using Pilgrim a lot more, it's just preference.Then, Nomad (normal) vs Fugitive (Premium) set difference is laughable, because Nomad gives you scanner protection, but the Premium set loses this bonus and gives you a mere +10% breath hold time and -15% slowdown while aiming.I also checked Molot UM-2 (normal) vs Molot UM-2A (Premium) and it doesn't even have reduced explosion damage bonuses anymore.

Bison set is objectively better than zubr tho.
There is no better stat ingame than -slowdown when aiming, it is even better than -slowdown
and it has this while also having the zubr bonuses with one huge improvement over zubr surviability and that is medkit efficiency it is at least 3 times better than the 10% explosion reduction because explosions are rare and bison is already immune to same deaths zubr is because heavy armor reduction for explosions is over 40% and that is without explosion rolls. While medkit is something players use every 15 seconds and even the 10% from passive tree feels huge ingame.


So sure, you could cherry pick some armor set that may have worse set bonus than normal counter part, but indeed there are premium armor sets that are quite a lot better than the normal part too.

If you made premium gun that has 50more dps than normal gun and then other premium gun that has 50 less dps than normal gun, it would not balance each other out haha...

https://i.imgur.com/oCeQvan.jpg

Here it is with picture for people to get idea of how much better bison is.
Zubr is slowest armor ingame, even if you are new you should understand that +15% speed on slowest armor is pretty godly, becoming only better and better with stuff like pkp where slowdown when aiming is super high, but also reducing greatly difference between scope-in light and scope in heavy armor.
Whole defensive tactic in this game is to scope-in and spam A-D-A-D, that is exactly where this bonus helps.
Last edited by Midori Fuse on 18.01.2020, 02:14, edited 3 times in total.

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18.01.2020, 02:24

Midori Fuse wrote:There is no better stat ingame than -slowdown when aiming, it is even better than -slowdown

Just to be clear with everyone else, these words come from a known troll in-game and in the discord chat. You just based your entire argument of 4 paragraphs on this non-sense, when 99% of the time spent in a match by a competitive player will be sprinting or holding a position, not moving while aiming down sights.
Last edited by Chandrian on 18.01.2020, 02:28, edited 2 times in total.
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18.01.2020, 02:26

Chandrian:
Just to be clear with everyone else, these words come from a known troll in-game and in the discord chat.

That is one hell of comeback. ^_^
I'm sure people will have sympathy for your character assassination attempt/Poisoning the well informal fallacy

Edit to add point to your multiple edits(which is kinda annoying way to lead discussion and i would prefer if you used new reply)

https://imgur.com/YxT6bei
This is how end-game tier 5 -slowdown bonus looks like
-3%
Max roll on armor piece is
-2.5%

how much -slowdown when aiming bison has, 1,3,5%? No, it has -15% which works as multiplier instead of increase!
Because it does double dip your speed and also is unique stat you can not roll anywhere else.

If you had 300% increased damage and i give you 30% increased damage you have 330% damage, but if you have 300% increased damage and i give you 30% more damage you get 390% damage

This is how unique multipliers work, so -15% slowdown when aiming which in itself is big nice number, is in fact even better

It is not just objectivelly better than zubr bonuses, it is also just godly in itself.
If i could roll this on my armor pieces, i would roll it everywhere.
Last edited by Midori Fuse on 18.01.2020, 02:52, edited 2 times in total.

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18.01.2020, 11:49

Midori Fuse:this game moved from very p2w to just little p2w


Game went from just little pay2win (5% Damage Bullets) to absolutely NO pay2win. Premium Gear doesnt give any advantages ingame for better chance to win the match. T1 and T5 gear doesnt even matter either. I played many matches with T1 gear only. Results nearly the same. Survarium is:

-Team 2 win
-Reaction & Aim 2 win
-Brain 2 win
-Map Knowledge & Experience 2 win
-Ping 2 win

Thats it.

Midori Fuse:Bison set is objectively better than zubr tho.


Ehm...NOPE. Bisons biggest disadvantage is its color in bushy map design.

Midori Fuse:There is no better stat ingame than -slowdown when aiming


This set bonus is not important as the movement in general is fast enough when going for 2,5 speed upgrades and energy drink booster.

Midori Fuse:medkit efficiency it is at least 3 times better than the 10% explosion reduction


Ehm...NOPE. Claymore evrywhere. Explosion protection saves me from X deaths, in every match.

All your argumentation about Bison and Zubr is subjective. I got both in my inventory and prefer to use Zubr since 1945. Bison is defintely NOT better than Zubr. Stop spreading shit.
Last edited by apfelmu2 on 18.01.2020, 12:04, edited 1 time in total.
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18.01.2020, 15:16

apfelmu2:
This set bonus is not important as the movement in general is fast enough when going for 2,5 speed upgrades and energy drink booster.


"being faster will be called non-important to somehow make my point" big uff
the difference in explosion is that with one armor you are left with more hp, while with other you heal the hp faster as you are going to use medkit in both cases.

Now that there is bomb detection of 5m radius, and stuff like "bombs everywhere" are flat out made up lie, that is really non issue. Then again you can roll explosion stat on your gear if you feel the need, you are not going to roll 20% medkit anywhere.
but that is not even the point, the point is it has both unique 15% speed AND 20% medkit vs 10% explosion non unique gear stat.

It happens often to me that i'm left with 1 to 10 hp, and that is hp I might not have without the 20% medkit bonus, you completely ignore that. So it saves me from X deaths, because things that could kill me are everywhere! So stop spreading s*
Now add 15% speed to that, speed saves me like almost always doing A-D-A-D. More speed is just always advantage. It is why we have light medium and heavy armor, if speed did not matter we would all wear heavy armor.

I also provide example of premium vs non premium weapon
now premium vs non premium armor

Yet you insist to base your post on subjective opinion while I provide actual screenshots that are not disputed by any of you because they are simply true and up to date.

You need to have very special definition of p2w that no one else uses, to call these things as 100% non p2w.
Under your definition not even the 5% more damage bullets are p2w, because you could kill someone without them.
Under your definition shield for 10$ dollars that will block 50 bullets per match is not p2w, because it does not instantly show up winscreen after purchase.

Sadly that is not how most people see p2w so your argument falls on your niche definition.

Argument also was not "can 300ping 1000elo afk person wearing bison win research match vs 6000 elo squad with 1 ping wearing nomad"
and it never was. Yet that is also what you are actually attacking, that is why your arguments are empty handed.

Unless you actually plan to adress my points with cool head, you will keep fighting windmills and that is fight you will never win.

https://i.imgur.com/7wEP5ir.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oCeQvan.jpg

Is it really so impossible for you to imagine that someone will look at this and be like "hey, that could provide advantage for money over non-paying user" but the whole reason i mention these is chan-chan's steam post where he does say

**"Every Premium item has a free counterpart with identical stats and is available as a reward in Treasure Hunt."**
https://steamcommunity.com/games/survar ... 8688566223
**Which is lie to start with, with proof above. That is not disputed and I win this argument on objective factual basis.**

So what is it Don Quixote? Will you keep fighting windmills? Facts and logic destroy carnist nonsense every time.

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18.01.2020, 15:57

Midori Fuse wrote: **"Every Premium item has a free counterpart with identical stats and is available as a reward in Treasure Hunt."**
https://steamcommunity.com/games/survar ... 8688566223
**Which is lie to start with, with proof above. That is not disputed and I win this argument on objective factual basis.**


One shotgun, the Premium version uses Slug rounds, like I said above. Do you know what this means? It doesn't mean that the stats are better, they're just different because the shotgun mechanics differ. Slug rounds mean that it's a single heavy bullet (heavy meaning that the drop is pretty noticeable, like on Vychlop) that if you miss, you'll do 0 damage until your next shot. 0 damage. The normal version of it on the other hand uses 12G, which has 8 shells inside, each one of them dealing 12.5% damage if at least 1 of them hits.

The range on the Catbird was nerfed recently too, which yes, if it would have the 20m range it had before 0.60b and then the 17m range it had before 0.60c, it would actually be OP like it was while Kelly and others were using it right before 0.60c. And I would agree with you and would have mentioned it in the opinion piece if so, because it was truly superior over the normal version, being as it was OHK to kill at normal fight range. And not even the fix that came 9 days later to increase its damage from 240 to 250 and armor piercing from 15 to 16 made the players use it again. After that nerf, all the good players stopped using the premium version even in leagues and I'll tell you why.

If you hit within those 10 meters of effective range of the Catbird (10m is pretty much nothing in Survarium, imagine the double distance of your mine detection skill), you'll deal 102.5 damage to full Zubr, effectively killing the user with 1 hit. Anything past those 10 metters, you'll need 2 shots to kill anyone, because shotgun damage gets a 50% penalty outside of effective range.

Due to how fast the gameplay is in Survarium, you cannot afford to rely on using a 40 rate of fire shotgun that, even if you don't miss, most of the time won't kill even if it hits.

Catbird is trash now and you're nitpicking.
Last edited by Chandrian on 18.01.2020, 15:58, edited 1 time in total.
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18.01.2020, 16:10

Chandrian:

One shotgun, the Premium version uses Slug rounds, like I said above. Do you know what this means? It doesn't mean that the stats are better, they're just different because the shotgun mechanics differ. Slug rounds mean that it's a single heavy bullet (heavy meaning that the drop is pretty noticeable, like on Vychlop) that if you miss, you'll do 0 damage until your next shot. 0 damage. The normal version of it on the other hand uses 12G, which has 8 shells inside, each one of them dealing 12.5% damage if at least 1 of them hits.

The range on the Catbird was nerfed recently too, which yes, if it would have the 20m range it had before 0.60b and then the 17m range it had before 0.60c, it would actually be OP like it was while Kelly and others were using it right before 0.60c. And I would agree with you and would have mentioned it in the opinion piece if so, because it was truly superior over the normal version, being as it was OHK to kill at normal fight range. And not even the fix that came 9 days later to increase its damage from 240 to 250 and armor piercing from 15 to 16 made the players use it again. After that nerf, all the good players stopped using the premium version even in leagues and I'll tell you why.

If you hit within those 10 meters of effective range of the Catbird (10m is pretty much nothing in Survarium, imagine the double distance of your mine detection skill), you'll deal 102.5 damage to full Zubr, effectively killing the user with 1 hit. Anything past those 10 metters, you'll need 2 shots to kill anyone, because shotgun damage gets a 50% penalty outside of effective range.

Due to how fast the gameplay is in Survarium, you cannot afford to rely on using a 40 rate of fire shotgun that, even if you don't miss, most of the time won't kill even if it hits.

Catbird is trash now and you're nitpicking.


I do not really disagree with much said in this post, i do not even like shotguns because sniper rifles do the same job much better. I'm just saying that making post with "Every" and "with identical stats " and then it not being true ingame means it is incorrect statement. It does not matter if it is nitpicky, if it happens once twice or 50 times, simply when it happens once that is not true and what is not true is lie. If someone would point that out in steam comments it would look no bueno
as post approved by VG.

I also love this game and even like you chan-chan. This is just little discussion on slow forum, no need to get heated.

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18.01.2020, 17:45

So different stats still exist.
And I'd say your personal preference should be broken down into an active combat situation. I don't have the time nor the interest to break down the combination of active+ passive artifact effects, but I am certain that some if not all are just stronger with the active strength applied. It is a smart disguise.
Like the Lakspur. Passive is miniscule. You get a full heal anyway. But if you meet an enemy with passive strength and you have the active, you both use it and shoot each other, you win because yours will last longer than his, thus healing you even after he stopped. Again, I don't want to test it, but I believe it can be applied to every artifact.

But atleast they changed the stats of guns and armors to be the same. I wouldn't say stats of the KS-23 are different, but the Slug, if it's an OHK makes it a much stronger gun.
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18.01.2020, 18:05

Dauerfeuer Ungeheuer:So different stats still exist.
And I'd say your personal preference should be broken down into an active combat situation. I don't have the time nor the interest to break down the combination of active+ passive artifact effects, but I am certain that some if not all are just stronger with the active strength applied. It is a smart disguise.
Like the Lakspur. Passive is miniscule. You get a full heal anyway. But if you meet an enemy with passive strength and you have the active, you both use it and shoot each other, you win because yours will last longer than his, thus healing you even after he stopped. Again, I don't want to test it, but I believe it can be applied to every artifact.

But atleast they changed the stats of guns and armors to be the same. I wouldn't say stats of the KS-23 are different, but the Slug, if it's an OHK makes it a much stronger gun.


Slug is also actually a lot better because you can kill for example snipers with single headshot on long range(tested)
Do not believe me, go to shooting ground. Same goes for all ranged engagement with this shotgun.

But like I said, I do not care about shotguns while sniper rifles do 2x better job at close range while being "million" times better at long range at same time.

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18.01.2020, 18:15

Dauerfeuer Ungeheuer wrote:Like the Lakspur. Passive is miniscule. You get a full heal anyway. But if you meet an enemy with passive strength and you have the active, you both use it and shoot each other, you win because yours will last longer than his, thus healing you even after he stopped. Again, I don't want to test it, but I believe it can be applied to every artifact.

Well, you should have tested it, because active Larkspur effect gets cancelled if you get hit. Passive effect is the way to use it in the current meta, gives +6% hp/s recovery to what you already had. With no Pilgrim set (which would make Larkspur +8%), from 40-50 to full hp is like 5 seconds. It's pretty fast, sometimes you won't even need to use a medkit after a fight. And if you get Zubr (+3% hp/s) + Larkspur then it's insanely fast.
Last edited by Chandrian on 18.01.2020, 18:15, edited 1 time in total.
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18.01.2020, 18:37

Midori Fuse:

Slug is also actually a lot better because you can kill for example snipers with single headshot on long range(tested)
Do not believe me, go to shooting ground. Same goes for all ranged engagement with this shotgun.

But like I said, I do not care about shotguns while sniper rifles do 2x better job at close range while being "million" times better at long range at same time.

I do believe you. I know slug shotguns are a joke in almost any game and OP as hell.
Chandrian:
Well, you should have tested it, because active Larkspur effect gets cancelled if you get hit. Passive effect is the way to use it in the current meta, gives +6% hp/s recovery to what you already had. With no Pilgrim set (which would make Larkspur +8%), from 40-50 to full hp is like 5 seconds. It's pretty fast, sometimes you won't even need to use a medkit after a fight. And if you get Zubr (+3% hp/s) + Larkspur then it's insanely fast.

Oh. So this was changed not so long ago? Lakspur was always used as a last-resort when in a fight to become invincible and heal to full almost instantly. Interesting to know they changed it to basically an additional medkit. This changes it of course.
I am still a fan of VG simply scrapping their shenanigans, stopping annoying players and giving haters a reason to call them P2W and just make the uniques solid copies with additional rubles/exp/rep bonuses.

Just make sets have 2-3 bonuses you can choose from individually. Like the active/passive thing where you can choose which one you want to have.
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19.01.2020, 13:45

hi, is graphics better now or same post alpha potato laptop friendly ?
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19.01.2020, 18:10

Akbaar wrote:hi, is graphics better now or same post alpha potato laptop friendly ?

This video is representative of current graphics, decide for yourself: https://youtu.be/X_xdS4VPYFY
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31.01.2020, 13:02

In my opinion graphic is still potato friendly, but the same thing was with pubg and Escape From Tarkov in the beginning. If wyeh will take more time for optimalisation, everything should get better

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