Abuse of strafing-while-sniping: easy fix

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08.07.2019, 12:29

Snipers are powerful in Survarium, and that's OK. Given lack of natural cover, it's often necessary to suppress snipers first. That's tactics and fun.

However, some sniping players abuse strafing-while-aiming (constantly strifing left-right). That way, anyone on counter-sniper mission finds it extremely difficult to hit such distant threat, but at the same time, the "constantly strifing sniper" is able to snipe anyone on the battlefield.

In real life, it's absolutely impossible to aim using a high-powered optics without staying still, providing support, and controlling breath. Too much scope sway. The bullets would fly whole meters apart from any target. Snipers fire from a complete standstill.

Hence, I propose a simple fix: allow snipers to aim while move, BUT introduce a scope-sway penalty during moving AND short time after the movement ends (eg. 1sec), which would render abuse of strafing-while-sniping completely impossible.
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Jano Msik
 
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08.07.2019, 17:19

Don't bring real life into game balance, snipers are overpowered and the only counter is having eagle eyes and instantly killing them. Just get them to balance the snipers properly and stop suggesting minor/nonexistent changes.
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Kube
 
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08.07.2019, 20:34

I dissent. Snipers aren't "overpowered", if anything, they are underpowered against Tier5 armor. Snipers are *defined* by the "One shot, One kill" creed, and they're doing exactly that in Survarium.

As long as there's smoke, there are adequate countermeasures against snipers, too. So it's working as designed, I say.

The only question is: how to not make sniper's job *too* easy? There are several possibilities - eg.:
- introducing ballistic model requiring lead and hold-over,
- introducing bipods as the exclusive mean to reduce scope sway
- etc.

But penalizing movement while scoped-in is easiest to code, because all the code for scope-sway *and* aiming-penalty-from-movement is already in-game and it only needs to be triggered specifically for snipers, which is pretty much two IF-ELSE statements and timer:

if(p.velocity >0 || p.was_moving_last_sec == true)
{ p.current_scope_sway = p.weapon_scope_sway * 10; p.was_moving_last_sec = true;}
else if(p.velocity == 0 && p.was_moving_last_sec)
{ /* code to handle 1sec timeout via threads and timer */ }
else
{p.current_scope_sway = p.weapon_scope_sway;}

I understand that the Devs don't want to spend too much effort on adding complex new code, so I'm trying to suggest improvements for which all the classes and methods either already exist in the codebase, or could be easily inherited and overriden.
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Jano Msik
 
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09.07.2019, 08:24

Tier5 snipers ohk even the heaviest t5 armor. You can move very fast with them. Aiming time is too fast with high magnification scopes and bonuses from sets like Nomad + gloves + laser sights. There's no accuracy penalty for shooting while moving. There's no penalty for shooting right after sprinting, even though there used to be one, which was lots of scope sway but it was removed at some point. There are glitches that let you shoot and reload much faster, so people abuse them as a shotgun, with a collimator instead of a scope. While someone is trying to hit you 4-6 times, you have enough time to react with a SR and shoot the guy, there's no aimpunch while scoped in.

If something is too easy to use and doesn't have enough disadvantages or no disadvantages at all, usually the definition of it is overpowered.

By the way, the game already has bullet velocity and bullet drop mechanics, it's not hit-scan, bullets don't reach the target instantly and you need to lead a lot with guns like Vychlop if shooting from long distances, while camping camouflaged in a bush or head-glitching behind some object.
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Chandrian
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09.07.2019, 15:23

Kube:Don't bring real life into game balance, snipers are overpowered and the only counter is having eagle eyes and instantly killing them. Just get them to balance the snipers properly and stop suggesting minor/nonexistent changes.


+1
-Realism in games is not equal to game fun and balance
-Snipers were balanced correctly before the 1-Tier-System. Surviving chance with few hp left (on heavy armors) and bleeding.
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apfelmu2
 
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09.07.2019, 17:20

I've never understood why snipers have such high damage values anyway. Do you really get into situations when you need to kill a person twice with a single bullet?

Snipers have enough damage to kill 1.5 players from 150m+ when they are wearing medium/high armor. Where is the downside? where is the counter?

We need massive aimpunch, armor penetration drop-off at distance, inaccuracy while being shot at/when moving OR VG could just bring back anesthetics with damage reduction.

The most simple fix they could do is just HALF the armor penetration values on all of the snipers. Barrett would still deal 76 damage to perfectly rolled zubr armor, and would still oneshot ALL armor under 60.

Snipers are stupidly overpowered
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Kube
 
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10.07.2019, 22:07

Chandrian, that's exactly what I'm talking about: snipers need heavy aiming/movement penalties to balance the penetrating power of their weapons.

No-movement-while-aiming is a must, because that's the other feature defining "snipers" as a role.
(Hence the need for HUGE accuracy penalty for shooting-while-moving, and penalty for shooting after sprinting.)

Kube, One-shot-one-kill is a must and needs to be retained, because it's a defining feature of snipers.
(Otherwise it would be even more pointless to be a sniper, and everyone would just run around with DMR (carbine) or assault rifle with scope.)
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Jano Msik
 
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11.07.2019, 00:03

Jano Msik wrote:Kube, One-shot-one-kill is a must and needs to be retained, because it's a defining feature of snipers.
(Otherwise it would be even more pointless to be a sniper, and everyone would just run around with DMR (carbine) or assault rifle with scope.)

Prior to the 1-tier system, Snipers were able to OHK light armor all the time, medium armor sometimes and would never do it on heavy armor, but had a high bleed chance and also don't forget the fast pistol swap speed. Now it just incentivizes campers and fast players alike because it's hard to miss.
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Chandrian
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11.07.2019, 10:42

In my opinion, in order to balance the snipers and make them skill based again we need to deviate from OHK in any part of the body towards OHK to head and upper chest separated into different zones for different caliber snipers.

-Barrett, ASVK and VSSK would get a slightly larger OHK sector coupled with bleeding that causes 2 damage/sec instead of 1,but at the same time would be clunky, heavy and slow to use, with considerable scope sway. (current slowdown and aiming time values are a joke, especially with nomad set and purple modules, so something needs to be changed here too). On top of that, ammo for those should be limited, something like 15 bullets at most, to prevent snipers from locking down an area for too long without resupplying (maybe even as low as 10 for Barrett).

-The ballistics in Survarium are underutilized. Essentially, only VSSK is affected by gravity and requires leading of target, while Barrett and ASVK are almost hit scan weapons. Tone down the bullet speed of all sniper rifles in the game so that ballistics would be a part of their gameplay.

-Remove silencers on Barrett and ASVK. One thing that makes Barrett and ASVK users easy to spot is that humongous muzzle flash that can be seen by others from quite some distance. Sadly almost no one ever sees it because silencers are used as flash hiders in our game (while actual flash hiders don't hide the flash whatsoever, lol).

-Now regarding light SR's.
*OHK to the head and tiny upper chest area.
*Bleeding stays the same as now - 1dmg/sec.
*Faster to use, less slowdown, lower scope sway, faster chamber time.
*Slightly more ammo, let's say 20 max.

-Important to note. OHK areas apply only to medium and heavy armors. Light armors get one hit killed in any area, because of abrupt and ridiculously fast movement in Survarium.
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UnknownPlayer666
 
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11.07.2019, 20:09

UnknownPlayer, under your proposal, sniper rifles would have *exactly* the same damage as better assault rifles and carbines, but *without* their rate of fire.

The only fun and tactical solution is to further reduce rate of fire and limit movement - that also being more realistic and not frustrating. Anything else would remove any utility of sniper rifles whatsoever.
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Jano Msik
 
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11.07.2019, 22:02

Jano Msik:Snipers are powerful in Survarium, and that's OK. Given lack of natural cover, it's often necessary to suppress snipers first. That's tactics and fun.

However, some sniping players abuse strafing-while-aiming (constantly strifing left-right). That way, anyone on counter-sniper mission finds it extremely difficult to hit such distant threat, but at the same time, the "constantly strifing sniper" is able to snipe anyone on the battlefield.

In real life, it's absolutely impossible to aim using a high-powered optics without staying still, providing support, and controlling breath. Too much scope sway. The bullets would fly whole meters apart from any target. Snipers fire from a complete standstill.

Hence, I propose a simple fix: allow snipers to aim while move, BUT introduce a scope-sway penalty during moving AND short time after the movement ends (eg. 1sec), which would render abuse of strafing-while-sniping completely impossible.


Players who strafe will be more visible. There is not a lack of natural cover. There are plenty of good "camping" spots on every map, you just have to know them. Being hard to hit is not bad in any way, same for sprinting players, for usage of speed anomaly, for dodging players, list goes on. As Kube says, real life should not be taken into consideration when balancing Survarium, because this game is not balanced on realism. The fix you would like to propose however, is not bad, but it should have nothing to do with strafing because that is not a problem. It is a good fix however for sniper rifles being too op. Your proposed fix will solve the close range problem.

Jano Msik:UnknownPlayer, under your proposal, sniper rifles would have *exactly* the same damage as better assault rifles and carbines, but *without* their rate of fire.

The only fun and tactical solution is to further reduce rate of fire and limit movement - that also being more realistic and not frustrating. Anything else would remove any utility of sniper rifles whatsoever.


Then the next problem is one hit kill. Now i agree with you that reducing the damage is not a good way to nerf snipers, because carbines exist, and then carbines would prove to be more useful as snipers on all aspects. There have been countless topics on nerfing snipers, and many proposed fixes, i also understand this topic was about something else, but that is irrelevant, and since VG have not yet confirmed to go nerf snipers, the first solution and the one under here (from my earlier posts) are probably enough to make snipers balanced again. Great way to nerf snipers is too reduce the bullet travel speed. Look at the current VSSK "VYCHLOP". If we compare this sniper rifle to other sniper rifles, the VSSK is the hardest to use at long range. This is because for example, you will have to aim ahead of a running person in order to hit them. This way I think its more balanced and skillful. Because let's be honest here, all sniper rifles right now are really easy to use.

With these 2 fixes, long range fixed, harder to hit. Still OHK, still useful. Short range, not as useful because aiming after running will be harder.

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12.07.2019, 08:05

Jano Msik:UnknownPlayer, under your proposal, sniper rifles would have *exactly* the same damage as better assault rifles and carbines, but *without* their rate of fire.


I'm not aware of any AR's or carbines that can one shot you to the chest.
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UnknownPlayer666
 
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14.07.2019, 09:10

Jano Msik:

In real life, it's absolutely impossible to aim using a high-powered optics without staying still, providing support, and controlling breath. Too much scope sway. The bullets would fly whole meters apart from any target. Snipers fire from a complete standstill.

It is not and you have no idea about real world weapons since you never used one. Real world guns have no artificial spread. A sniper moving would hit the spot he aimed at at the moment of pulling the trigger.
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Dauerfeuer Ungeheuer
 
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14.07.2019, 10:24

It's not hard to use a scope while moving, especially x4-x8, that's ridiculously easy.
Seeing as how your country probably doesn't allow guns, you should try it with a pellet rifle, just tune the trigger with a washer and polish the sear face.
I use a 8-24x50 on my fs2k, and do matches with it, though i have offset irons.

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14.07.2019, 17:31

Dauerfeuer Ungeheuer:It is not and you have no idea about real world weapons since you never used one. Real world guns have no artificial spread. A sniper moving would hit the spot he aimed at at the moment of pulling the trigger.


Almost true, try again. There is bullet travel time but the bullet travel speed on most snipers is very fast. So it depends on the distance and what sniper rifle you are using. So in some scenarios, yes, almost instant hit. But not all.

Regenval
 
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14.07.2019, 19:47

Dauerfeuer Ungeheuer and Slockum:

guys, I am a real-life competition shooter. I competed in Hunter Field Target and .22LR "little sniper" matches in my younger days, and my personal full-bore record grouping is 0,69* MoA using Sierra 68grs .223 HBPT and 20x56 scope, thank you very much. So believe me I know VERY well what am I talking about. And I never said a word about anything as silly as "artificial spread".

"Sniper" is defined by sub-MoA accuracy (little over 1" on 100 yards). Anything else is not "sniping" but "normal shooting" and you don't need "sniper rifle" for it (CZ805A1 "Bren" acceptance requirement was 4MoA, mil-spec USGI M4A1s can do 2-3MoA when freefloated and with good ammo matching the barrel).

And no competitor or military sniper has ever even attempted sub-MoA accuracy "on the move" because it's PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE given these three factors:

PARALAX:
unless you have riflescope set precisely to targets distance - and you NEVER have in tactical/hunting conditions -, unless you position and align your eye precisely, the scope crosshair is aiming decimeters or more off real POI, depending on the distance.

NATURAL POINT OF AIM:
unless you position your body so that the barrel points maximum 5 MoA off the target, you have to "push" or "pull" entire rifle too much and resulting muscle activity introduces so much trembling sub-MoA is not possible. You must hold it lightly like a feather.

STABLE POSITION:
the rifle must be so steady that you can focus on eliminating your breathing using natural respiratory pause AND hard heartbeats, since both can easily ruin sub-moa accuracy.

These three absolutely require movement pause >30 seconds just to take up a good position, and further 5-20 seconds to fire each sub-MoA aimed shot. From what I've personally seen at the competitions, military snipers often take minute or more just to take the best position.

Don't believe me?

Well then Slockum, take your air rifle, take standard HFT reset target with 15mm reduced killzone, set it at 60 meters and fire off your pellets on the move. Oh sorry, 16J HFT-compliant air rifle cannot do that. Then make a custom target limiter for 6mm killzone (thats right, just 0,5mm larger than the 5,5mm pellet) and set it at HFT-compliant 30m range. Believe me it would be challenging to even hit that reduced killzone with match-grade air-rifle like TX-200 or S410 from a perfectly stable position, and these have no recoil!

Now replace zero-recoil PCPs with firearms, which introduce recoil once the moment primer sets off the propellant charge and already raises the barrel while the projectile is still moving in it, thus affecting POI - and without stable body position and natural point of aim, you'll hit sub-MoA target on-the-move maybe once per million attempts, just by sheer luck.

So NO, snipers cannot strafe while shooting, wouldn't strafe while shooting, and that's objective "hard fact" which can be verified on any serious shooting range.

_____________
*and mere 0,69 MoA sucks for a "sniper", I dont even call myself that, other people in my group can get under 0,5MoA on their best days. I gave up seriously competing and do friendly range-day group comparisons nowadays.
Last edited by Jano Msik on 14.07.2019, 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Jano Msik
 
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14.07.2019, 21:04

Oh gee, I'm sorry, I thought you did real competition, I didn't think you were talking about lead-sled cushioned seating bench rest shooting at pre-marked 2in targets at 301 meters with wind indication flags.
Man get the hell out of here with that crap. You know why I put a 8-24 on a 8moa rifle? Because I have offset irons for close targets, and the huge cheapo scope gives fast target acquisition on the MOVE for "far" targets. I don't know how far, no time, I just zero at 150, then go play. I don't shoot sub-moa because my rifle isn';t anywhere near capable of it, and it doesn't have to be. FN didn't make it to be a safe baby. It was made to work no matter what, and hit what it's supposed to. A hit is a hit.
Maybe after you do some cardio you can do some run and gun, because you can't use your bench rest.

The ammo I use? A cardboard box of reloaded .223 that I buy in bulk cause it's cheap, it functions, and though its 223 out of 1;7 rifling, it does the job and puts hits on targets. The targets I use? Gosh, now I know it's not "competitive" but they are simple, black silhouettes.
Heck, I even had the barrel cut down and rethreaded to 16" and 1/2x28 so I could put m16 stuff on it. So I made even less accurate, and threw some heavy crap on the end. Dang, now I'll never get sub-moa .001in groups.
Last edited by Slockum on 14.07.2019, 21:11, edited 1 time in total.

Slockum
 
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14.07.2019, 21:31

Lol, no I'm not doing benchrest. Thats too weird for me.

I do prone-position "tactical" shooting 100m to 500m on rough ground with bipod front and nothing but "sniping sock" in collapsed left hand underneath the stock. Thats the way snipers do it while deployed, and thats also the rules on most "normal" military/civilian participation competitions. And that's what tests accuracy of you the shooter more than of your rifle.

On the longer-range range, if you don't hit the paper of the target at 500m, you're ejected from the range because if you cannot control where your shots go, you're not a marksman and youre threat to the anyone 4km around the range. So that translates to roughly 4MoA being required for even the worst "sniper" to even qualify to practice.

Anyway, your post is proving the exact point I'm rising: shooting-on-the-move is something you do with assault rifle, battle rifle or carbine, but not with sniper rifle. 8MoA, thats average accuracy of stock AKM-family rifles. And yes, with ARs and pistols, even I practice shooting-while-moving (not that much since I'm not an action guy and rules on many ranges expressly forbid this, but enough to keep the basic muscle memory fresh).

But that's a whole world apart from sniper rifles, since as you say yourselves, shooting-while-moving is 8MoA or more. From my experience, shooting on a move on standard black PPC silhouette from 25 meters, shots are spread inside the silhouette, which is wide what - 24cm? So that would be equivalent to whole 40MoA! (and I usually have outliers, so that would be like 60MoA).

I didn't propose movement/scope sway penalties for either assault rifles or carbines in Survarium, just for sniper rifles.

So I think that after all, there is no need to have an disagreement. Sub-MoA powerful sniper rifles should get movement penalties, over-MoA intermediate-calibre and small-calibre-high-velocity carbines and ARs should not. Done.
Last edited by Jano Msik on 14.07.2019, 21:40, edited 2 times in total.
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Jano Msik
 
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15.07.2019, 11:18

I enjoyed reading the discussion however for it to continue, it must do so in a respectful manner. Thanks.
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trouble_every_day
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15.07.2019, 17:36

Haha, and what about reaction from VG? all these feedback topics are left unanswered. Is VG gonna do something with the feedback? We may never know.

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