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13.07.2018, 20:19

joewillburn:

MM based on ELO is very accurate. The issue comes in when there are multiple tiers that require matching with multiple levels of ELO. New player, same tier, low elo, matched with old player, same tier, high elo because there are not enough players in the queue (not for the mode or tier) but with the specific tier and elo to match (for example) the high elo player. So ultimately, the elo is sacrificed and a best-made match is done. I've been told that once the single tier system is implemented, the ELO based MM will be great.


Sorry, but you are absolutely wrong. I mentioned a 8v8 full player case where team A has 12000 elo and team B has 12000 elo too! You says, that is accurate... What is accurate exactly? The balance is not, im sure...
Sure, 12000 = 12000, so, mathematically, it is absolute accurate, BUT it is not balanced in the game...
Why do you talk about low playerbase and single tier in this case? :)

If i play in tier 5, in a full player game, how the "not enough player in the queue" or the "single tier" will affects more the matchmaking after the update?
Exactly that's why i mentioned an example with 8 real players versus 8 real players game, where the both teams have 12000 elo! You can say that is accurate, but it is not...

I will show you what i'm talking about with a REAL game's result:

Team A (ELO 17 238)
1 [Bier] _ChE4ty_BrE3ki_ lvl:67 elo:3150
2 [SAINTZ] -Smok3R- lvl:78 elo:2053
3 hishnik_ lvl:84 elo:2576
4 [-Грех-] VasoGоra lvl:90 elo:2529
5 [EX] J0r lvl:69 elo:1765
6 -VOVK- lvl:83 elo:1990
7 andrii2002 lvl:53 elo:807
8 [GLS] Ходок1988 lvl:76 elo:2368

Team B (ELO 17 168)
1 [ENEMY] лека lvl:100 elo:2999
2 [ENEMY] Skyfeengear lvl:100 elo:3407
3 [ENEMY] Alex Stan lvl:92 elo:3424
4 Scythe of Vyse lvl:75 elo:1239
5 GabreeEL lvl:67 elo:1243
6 [Рейд] Мансур Лесной Стрелок lvl:62 elo:2058
7 Kaco666 lvl:65 elo:1527
8 poison frog lvl:68 elo:1271

So, Joe, please figure it out, which team won that game... If you are right, and the ELO is accurate enough, team 'A' should be the winner, right? Team A has more ELO, that is the better team, right?!

But look at the levels please, and the ingame experience for example the overall ingame time of that 2 teams...
Team A has 600 levels in overall, team B has 629, and what a difference! How many XP needed from lvl 90 to lvl 100? I think, more than from lvl 1 to lvl 90! So, team B has 2 players (the lvl 100 ones) who has more experience than the whole team A!

And, just for fun, look at that lvl 53 guy with 807 elo... What is he doing in the team A? Shouldn't he be in the team B, should he?

And, again: that was a full-player game. Doesn't affected by "short queue"!
Matchmaking system could make a better balanced match, but MM looked at the ELO, and MM said: "Wow, elo is equal! The game is balanced!" Pff... :D

I'm not talking about that when there are only 4 players in a match, and 2 of them are in squad with 3500 elo each plus 2 random low level players with 1000 elo each...
I know, because the low playerbase, the matchmaking system must start a game where team A has 7000 elo and team B has 2000...
That is acceptable, because there is NO CHANCE to balance the players better!

But back to the real example:
Why the matchmaking system did not counts with squads? With levels? With overall ingame time? Etc etc...

Elo is not everything... Elo is just a data. Matchmaking system should use MORE DATA to balance the games!

And finally 2 things:
1. Team B has a lot of laggers with 100+ ping, for sure, wearing full light set, and teleporting on the map...
2. Vostok should punish harder the AFKS, LAGGERS and the LEAVERS.... They ruins the matches completely.
Last edited by _ChE4ty_BrE3ki_ on 13.07.2018, 20:28, edited 1 time in total.
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_ChE4ty_BrE3ki_
 
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13.07.2018, 20:59

_ChE4ty_BrE3ki_:
Team A (ELO 17 238)
Team B (ELO 17 168)


I made some math, and:
Team A has 167,13 days(!) overall ingame time
Team B has 261,67 days(!) overall ingame time
Team A has 600 skill points
Team B has 629 skill points
Team A has 260 overall average score (average of the personal avg. scores)
Team B has 308 overall average score
Team A has 75 average level
Team B has 79 average level

And i can mention anything about that 2 teams, team B has serious advantage over team A.
Except ELO. The only one thing is ELO where team A get a better value...
So, the MM systeam says team A was the better team.
Everybody else on the Earth says team B was the better team, because team B had advantage in every single aspect except the ELO.
And the most important factor was the ingame time. Over 100 more days(!) experience to team B! That is an ultimate difference!
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_ChE4ty_BrE3ki_
 
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14.07.2018, 06:28

And again nothing interesting i can come back for. Instead of working on new content you wasting time on minor features that community didn't asked you. We want new maps/game-modes/guns/armors/unique events like years ago. Don't even mention bigger plans like territories wars/anomalous storm or even simple clan wars. Playing the same maps on same games modes over and over is boring. Good looking graphics it's not everything...

Btw what happend to these PVP-elements plans from April 2016 (https://survarium.com/en/news/survarium ... ment-plans)? Seems like already dead.

Month by month there are less players. Counting since November 2017 it's -50% population on steam and probably the same is on standalone version.

https://steamcharts.com/app/355840
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Ventori
 
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14.07.2018, 06:33

Question: since Vostok Games's other project has many, many shared assets, is it likely in the future that their own project will also have assets that will be added to Survarium? A shared workflow for artists and designers in some sense?

We can see that many models are taken directly from Survarium for this other game which is good for quick development and is not necessarily a bad thing. I am curious if the same will happen for that game sharing assets with Survarium that might lead to Survarium receiving more content updates similarly.
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chicken_feet
 
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14.07.2018, 08:07

chicken_feet:
We can see that many models are taken directly from Survarium for this other game which is good for quick development and is not necessarily a bad thing. I am curious if the same will happen for that game sharing assets with Survarium that might lead to Survarium receiving more content updates similarly.

Let's hope so.

I thought about this new lobby... Maybe in the long run, the plan is to implement something like a simplistic housing feature, where we can spend Money on decorations and such. Unlikely but who knows.
Last edited by Niruxu on 14.07.2018, 09:29, edited 1 time in total.
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14.07.2018, 09:19

_ChE4ty_BrE3ki_ wrote:Sorry, but you are absolutely wrong.


As I mentioned, ELO is a very accurate system and with the tier reduction it will have a better chance to match player vs player equally. I also explained why the ELO isn't always accurate at this stage.
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joewillburn
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14.07.2018, 09:31

Ventori:... from April 2016 ...


They said in 2016 too there will be a new faction.
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_ChE4ty_BrE3ki_
 
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14.07.2018, 10:13

joewillburn:

As I mentioned, ELO is a very accurate system and with the tier reduction it will have a better chance to match player vs player equally. I also explained why the ELO isn't always accurate at this stage.


But MM had the chance(!) to balance more that mentioned example game... Why made MM an unbalanced match? There were 16 players, but the MM gives the level 100 team the level 60-70 players, and gives that (for example) level 53 player to the other team...

And again, there is a bigger difference from 2000 to 3000 elo than from 1000 to 2000.

So, a 3000 elo player is a much more better player than an 1000 elo player PLUS a 2000 elo player. He has more ingame experience, more skill points, usually better upgraded equipments, etc...

But the MM says: 1000+2000 = 3000, so that is balanced. No, it is not. And it not depends on how much player searching for matches. Mathematically accurate, but not balanced in every other aspect. :(

Edit:
Did i mention laggers, who are intentionally playing on a server from the other side of the Earth? They are still a huge problem. "Teleporting" effect gives them an armour, called "lagshield". That's why all the 100+ ping players playing in the lightest set possible, usually supported by passive speed artifact effect. They has around 8 movement speed (possible height 7.56 + passive artifact effect).
This line is from Vostok Games' own (!) System Requirements page:
Connection: Supported latency: up to 200 ms
So, why are players with 200+ ping allowed to play? (Without mentioning that 199 is ridiculously high too...)
Last edited by _ChE4ty_BrE3ki_ on 14.07.2018, 10:42, edited 1 time in total.
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14.07.2018, 11:00

_ChE4ty_BrE3ki_:

Sorry, but you are absolutely wrong. (...).


Its because of squads. You can't have squads and balance at the same time. In one team you can have two squads of high level, high ELO, teamspeak using players and in the other one, no squads at all, just random people. Next thing is, attachment and skill system is set up in favor of skilled players. You play in squads full of bad mother*uckers? You will will more often than other poor guys. Then you and your squad will get more attachments and exp points, so you get even better and win more. You win more often you get better stuff... And so on.

You want to have balance? Reduce everything to one tier, remove ELO and squads, assign people to the teams at random. Then statistically people should win 50 % of games. Just as it was in Quake3 era.
Last edited by yaji on 14.07.2018, 11:01, edited 1 time in total.

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14.07.2018, 13:38

where is new Development Plans about PVE ?
https://survarium.com/en/news/dev-diary-part-4-freeplay
No matter how bad it is, why not try it?
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Kuang214
 
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14.07.2018, 14:08

Again this balance, elo, MM topic. And again, im here telling an easy solution for all this crap.

-Replacing this unblanaced League thing with clan war system. Ladder climbing, reward system, leaderboard, professional, competitive gaming. Real teams vs real teams. Thats what clans should be for btw.

So we would have normal pvp with random teams on the one side, and competitive gaming at the other side.

This game can be so frustrating as a very good player... Without squads, game modes like research & battery are often not even playable because of so many useless players here (Sorry for speaking out the truth!). They dont capture, they dont care about batteries. Sitting 3 meters away from capture point & "sniping" instead of taking that point. Man...what kind of players I saw here in the time since I play. Its beyond reality, seriously.

The very good players here are carrying to their limits, trying desperately to win a 3vs8 match. Losing TDM matches even with stats like 50-5, wich means 45 taken points of only ONE man. Match after Match, all this effort. And one day he loses control and kills some of these totally useless teammates and gets a ban, without thinking about the fact, that this man carried hundreds of matches to a win, doing 70% of all the work.

I told it 2 years ago & Im still telling it: This game needs real teams vs real teams (clan wars)!
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14.07.2018, 14:55

too bad voice isnt heard by enemies - would love to see the "terrorist" achievement hunters screaming "allahu akbar" with nade primed running towards you :D

oh wait - still works for friendlies :D
Last edited by s0mething on 14.07.2018, 14:55, edited 1 time in total.
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14.07.2018, 14:57

yaji:

Its because of squads. You can't have squads and balance at the same time. In one team you can have two squads of high level, high ELO, teamspeak using players and in the other one, no squads at all, just random people. Next thing is, attachment and skill system is set up in favor of skilled players. You play in squads full of bad mother*uckers? You will will more often than other poor guys. Then you and your squad will get more attachments and exp points, so you get even better and win more. You win more often you get better stuff... And so on.

You want to have balance? Reduce everything to one tier, remove ELO and squads, assign people to the teams at random. Then statistically people should win 50 % of games. Just as it was in Quake3 era.


Best example of this was once when i saw 2 squads of 3 of the same clan on enemy team - no squads on our team ....
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14.07.2018, 15:49

s0mething:too bad voice isnt heard by enemies - would love to see the "terrorist" achievement hunters screaming "allahu akbar" with nade primed running towards you :D

oh wait - still works for friendlies :D

This achievement works on teammates?
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14.07.2018, 16:06

_ChE4ty_BrE3ki_ wrote:Did i mention laggers, who are intentionally playing on a server from the other side of the Earth? They are still a huge problem. "Teleporting" effect gives them an armour, called "lagshield". That's why all the 100+ ping players playing in the lightest set possible, usually supported by passive speed artifact effect. They has around 8 movement speed (possible height 7.56 + passive artifact effect).

Please show some evidence of this claim, e.g. video of such "laggers".

High ping does NOT gives you any sort of advantage. If you're interested here is a bit of our stats - average score earned by players' in matches over last month:
ping 50 - average score is 275/210 (PvP/Rating)
ping 100 - score is 261/185
ping 150 - score is 253/155

As you can see higher ping clearly corresponds with lower score, especially notable in leagues - players with ping of 150 earned 25% less score than players with 50 ping.

ivan_vg
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14.07.2018, 16:16

s0mething:too bad voice isnt heard by enemies - would love to see the "terrorist" achievement hunters screaming "allahu akbar" with nade primed running towards you :D

oh wait - still works for friendlies :D

I think that at least radio commands should be heard in proximity by the enemies if there's any nearby, but correctly. Don't just shout it out if there's no allies nearby, what would be the point of screaming RELOADING when you have no allies close (it's also sad that we don't have predetermined comms like "reloading!", "fire in the hole!" or stuff like that in this game). I saw Alliance of Valiant Arms do this and it worked amazingly well.
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14.07.2018, 18:38

joewillburn:MM based on ELO is very accurate


No offense, but
Dude... that´s such a bs... Were you told to write that or do you have facts that can underline that?
Also I know that you can´t judge by your game results as you play for your pay and don´t achieve good results

Judging by my game experience and by the experience of others this system´s failing to detect an even team skill which results in tossing players with higher k/d rate against players with lower k/d rate.
If you´d play better and more often you´d get a feeling for that.

ELO doesn´t even out the skill level between teams! As I tried to propose: It better should judge by k/d instead of by how often you won a match being first, second, third etc.

Again I´m not offending you but you should think before you write and also I hope that one day the mods and PR workers will stop spreading propaganda of how good the game is and will also start to be more critical. If you don´t help to show where the weakpoints´re this project will not even get in the next six years to the point of release
Last edited by RiotOfDoom on 14.07.2018, 18:45, edited 1 time in total.
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14.07.2018, 19:31

RiotOfDoom wrote:No offense, but
Dude... that´s such a bs... Were you told to write that or do you have facts that can underline that?
Also I know that you can´t judge by your game results as you play for your pay and don´t achieve good results


As I said, the ELO isn't working as well as it could be at this time. The fact there are multiple tiers, with multiple levels of XP and multiple ELO ratings all sitting in the queue at once it is not possible at this time for the ELO to come into proper effect. I have been told by the guys directly that the ELO system will yield far more accurate and balanced results once the problems in its way have been removed.

Personally it doesn't bother me if you believe what I am saying or not. But to talk as if you know more about how the system works than Dima and the rest of the team is strange. Perhaps (as you are an expert) send me a document with your own, and I quote "Better Idea" so I can send it to the team and hopefully they'll see how stupid they are? Or perhaps, can you write the code yourself and save us the trouble? You seem like an expert in this field.

My email is easy to find. I hope to hear from you :)


Sarcasm aside: How about we all wait and see the results of the compression before screaming about how bad it is... mmmkay?
Last edited by joewillburn on 14.07.2018, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.
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joewillburn
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14.07.2018, 19:57

joewillburn:


Sarcasm aside: How about we all wait and see the results of the compression before screaming about how bad it is... mmmkay?

How many months until it will be ready?
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14.07.2018, 19:59

@joe
As for jumping. Those jumps will be shorter than now? How it will work in PVE? Will people be able to reach hidden boxes in sawmill location?

As for MM thing. Perfect ELO and MM should work well in any circumstances. I understand that's not easy task to make it perfect, so let's see how it copes with bigger playerbase (one tier) and then try to fix it if needed.
Last edited by Tanatloc on 14.07.2018, 20:19, edited 3 times in total.
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